Income Protection and Mental Health

Kathryn Knowles  02:42

Alright, so I’ll just give it one more minute for people to turn up as to whoever would like to be turning up. And for the people who are here, this is obviously a live session, it is something’s gonna be going out and recording, if you do want to interact, do feel free to put in messages or to unmute yourself at times, or, you know, potentially come to video if you want to. But just be mindful that if if you do do that, then when it does go out in terms of people being able to watch it back that that your information would be would be on there, so completely up to you. So I think we’ll probably start getting into things I’ll let more people come in as and when they turn up. And a little bit of a disclaimer, if it’s okay, just at the start. If anybody does follow me on social media or anything like that, you will know that at the moment, my father was quite poorly, and not expecting anything to sort of like shouldn’t have been in the session or anything like that. If I do suddenly get an urgent call, then I will have to end the session, unfortunately. But then what I’ll do is I’ll re record it. And while I’m away from everybody else, and get it sorted, what I will do is just just from the start, I’ll probably just mute myself and toggle over the phone and let you to leave you to sort of like have a bit of a chat with everybody, Lee. And then if obviously I needed to go, I would go but fingers crossed, we’re not going to be in that situation. So, Lee, would you like to do the opening video if that’s okay. Yeah,

Lee Robertson  04:35

of course. Welcome everyone, whether you’re watching live or On Demand, the sessions are absolutely fantastic. And I’m really, really chuffed to be involved getting the easy part just as the kind of co host, as I’ve said in the chat already, all questions are welcome. No questions or death question. You know, don’t be shy to come forward. You can come on screen, as Kathryn said, or you can put it in the chat and I’ll look out there to this morning session. And I have some affinity with, you know, having really struggled last year with mental health personally for various reasons, which I was very public about on LinkedIn. But beyond that I’m incredibly I’m such a fanboy of protection having grown up through that side in the business. So I’m genuinely genuinely I always look forward to these, but this one particularly resonates with me. So, on that note, oh, and I’ll go off screen while Catherine’s talking. Just nobody wants to sit and look at me with a face for radio. But I will. On that note, I will pass that over to pass things over to you, Catherine. Looking forward to this immensely.

Kathryn Knowles  05:36

Thank you, Lee. And obviously, thank you for sharing that and personal experiences. Most people know about myself as well. I’ve lived with generalized anxiety disorder for many, many years now. And, you know, there’s something there’s, you know, I’m very mindful that I have been that clients who’s had to answer mental health questions for insurance. And it’s not particularly easy. And I’ve been obviously the advisor for many, many people, I do help significant amounts of people with mental health conditions trying to get insurance. And it’s always important, we will, we will mainly be talking about income protection today. But some of this information will flow out over as well to the other sides of protection insurance, the life and yogic side of things, too. So the really key thing, when we’re looking at these insurances, especially for like a pre sales type of approach is that, you know, we need to be managing clients expectations, you know, somebody has a mental health condition, right at this moment, especially for income protection, it’s quite likely that there’s going to be a mental health exclusion, not always I will go through what we would be expecting in certain situations, but everybody is case by case. So we can never say for definite, if you are really working in this space, and you work a lot with mental health, and you can probably get to the point where very early on those initial conversations with clients, you’d be able to go to you know what this is, this is probably going to be a mental health exclusion, but only once you are really, really experienced in this area, because, you know, we don’t want to put people off, but we also just want to make sure that we’re having that conversation sensitively.

So the key things that we’re going to be asking people when it comes to mental health, and there’s always a bit of a theme with these kinds of questions when it comes to underwriting and is, you know, what have you been diagnosed with? When were you diagnosed with it? What are your symptoms? Is there any medication, ideally, the dosage amount, as well as knowing the name of the medication, and it’s the name of the medication is really quite important for the mental health side of things as well. And I’ll go through that a little bit more, in a bit, there’s just certain ones that kind of would stand out as okay, this is maybe not just a sort of like a low one single low level socket, that the symptoms maybe aren’t as strong, you know, in a sense, you’ve got highest symptoms higher. That’s obviously high risk conditions for insurance, when insurance term, they would be seen as a high risk backfield, that’s really unfair to kind of say that based on the medical condition, and it’s but obviously, we are talking from an insurance point of view, which is quite tricky. But there are some mental health conditions that do typically lead to a higher risk of claims. So some of the sometimes the medication might not necessarily mix up and match with what you’re hearing from a client, we just need to be mindful of those key things our time off work as well.

If you’ve got somebody with a mental health condition, and they had some time off work five years ago, that’s very different to somebody who’s maybe had, you know, a couple months off work in the last year or something, you know, it’s showing that this the shows like see now, how much is this affecting this person? Right now? What are those symptoms now? Is it well controlled, engaging with medication is not seen as a negative when it comes to protection insurance, a lot of people seen something, when you chat to them over I don’t take medication anymore, because we there is this stigma about mental health and medication. And there are some mental health conditions where insurers would actually don’t want that medication to be in place, they want this person to be doing cognitive behavior therapy. And that’s not to say that they wouldn’t necessarily insure the person but it’s just that doing that engagement can really show the show, right? This person is really aware of their mental health, how it can affect them, they are taking those bits of time to just sort of like really focus on their mental health, you know, learn these techniques, keep using them, which again, kind of from the risk and the statistics part from insurance point of view, is extremely positive. So again, we might be able to go into that a little bit as well. We are going to be asking at some point about suicidal thoughts and self harm suicide attempts.

Now I’m really careful with that wording. Now, it’s really really important. I have said this on many many things and you know, I will always keep referring back to it. You It is easy to get the wording wrong when it comes to suicide attempts. And so, as an example, you know, a lot of the time it used to be the phrasing, have you ever tried to commit suicide, and for some reason commit suicide. It’s, it’s, it’s strange, but it’s what’s known as it’s kind of like a bit of a normative language and use of wording is something that has been used for decades. But it’s actually seen as as a real negative to say it that way, because the word commits, likens it to an illegal act, which then has a religious connotations, so you can potentially really offend somebody, if you say commit suicide. So what we do is we always try to attempt suicide, you will notice, I believe that all insurers do believe all insurers now have it is attempt suicide, rather than commit. But he also wants to, and this is, again, with any medical condition is avoid word of suffer, no, how long? Have you suffered with depression, or suffered with panic attacks, things like that, and suffered with schizophrenia? We don’t want to say the word suffer, unfortunately, show us so many shows, Question Sets, so use that wording. But what we can do is say, you know, how long have you lived with depression? How long have you lived with this? And it’s just a slight change in wording. But it’s it’s not negative is actually a pot, you know, it’s I hope it’s, you can see that it’s a positive terminology that’s being used. It’s not saying that poor suffer just sounds really negative, basically. So we’re going to be trying to avoid that as much as possible.

When we are doing our research, obviously, we’re gonna have all of that information is hands also things like have they seen a psychiatrist? If somebody has told you that they have anxiety, depression, and they’ve seen a psychiatrist, then that is one of those things where you might just want to delve in a little bit more. And a lot of the time, we wouldn’t expect a psychiatrist to be involved with anxiety and depression or stress or bereavements. Just because psychiatrists on the NHS, would not usually become involved in that point, it would usually be psychologists, GPS, Cognitive Behavior therapists. And so if somebody’s telling you that they’ve seen a psychiatrist, and the mental health condition isn’t one where a psychiatrist would typically be involved, then it can be worth just checking them can just check us out on the NHS was that private, because a lot of people do engage with them privately. And that is that is different when it comes to the, to sort of the, the outcomes. So you know, it’s, you get the same thing with some heart conditions, you know, there’s some heart procedures that can happen. And if it was done on the NHS, it means that it’s been reactive, it’s been a very serious situation, but the person might have gone privately, and it might have been preventative rather than reactive. So it can really change the outcome. So it’s, it’s just quite a good one to sort of bring in there. And and that won’t be in the insurance Question Sets, if you use their applications, that’s just you, just knowing how to do that, knowing how to ask that from the start. But I would say is when you’re starting to do the application, and it’s really, it can be tricky sometimes to do this. But it often fits quite nicely, is that once you’ve answered, you know, have you had anxiety, stress depression? You only need to answer that once.

So you can find and it can be a bit tricky, because you can sometimes get an insurer saying, Have you taken any medication for the last, you know, that’s lasted more than four weeks? And the last so many years? At which point you’d be saying, yes. And I’d be like, Well, what was it about as you got more anxiety? But then a few things later, you’ll have another question saying, Have you experienced anxiety in the last five years, which is also a yes. But all we’re doing, though, is doubling up in terms of what we’re saying? And if you’ve said yes, already and already said about the anxiety, all the questions that are needed are going to be coming up to you, and it’s going to be reactive and that insurance application, so you will answer all of them anyway. And you can say yes, the second time when there’s specific anxiety questions, but what you will find is that you will then have a double up of all the questions that you’ve answered, ask the client already, which will be the things like how many days off work, sometimes lifestyle factors, it’ll be asking about the self harm suicide thoughts, any suicide attempts. So you can find that you go through all those again, and when it comes to mental health, big thing, especially if you do any mental health training, if you speak to any Charities is to is to not ask or not repeat what you’re asking more than once. We don’t want this person to keep having to go through and saying again, and again, these answers. So if you answer yes a second time, just say to them, Look, it’s just asking me all the questions again, I’m just going to add in and repeat what we’ve said before, so just try and remember those answers. If you can’t remember them.

Obviously, you will need to ask them again, but to say once it’s in there the first time, it’s always a case of once you’ve already said it, we’ve already got that information into the inshallah a very interesting set of things as well just because of things that can slightly come in to the mental health crisis. can set. It’s things like autism and ADHD diagnosis. So most of us will be familiar in there. Have you ever questions they’ll often be Have you ever seen a psychiatrist have some sort of question along that line? Well, if you have autism, if you have ADHD, you will have seen a psychiatrist at some points. And just to be very clear, autism is not a mental health condition. It is a neuro diverse conditions neurodevelopmental. So it will be this yes, you need to prepare the person say, look, there is this question coming up, it does ask about a psychiatrist. It is worded more towards mental health. But because of the autism, I know, it’s not a mental health condition. But because they’re asking about the psychiatrist at this point, we need to say yes, it will ask about the autism, it will then do reactive questions, and just say it might do reactive questions based more upon a mental health situation rather than autism. Unfortunately, that’s just the way that the questions go, majority of people absolutely fine, if you explain it that way to them. And they do appreciate that, you know, the insurance systems are gonna be asking things in certain ways psychiatrist often is to do with mental health. So they will understand that, on the ADHD, ADHD side of things, that’s a little bit trickier in some ways, because ADHD is, is a form of new or behavioral disorder. And there’s, if you do any research on ADHD, you will see that different organizations, different charities, different medical organizations across, you know, lots of different countries, some of them will say it’s mental health, some of them will say it’s neurodiverse. And it’s really, really tricky. So if you look at the ones in the UK, it’s like, like the NHS type thing, it just send you a behavioral, so just sit in there. And there are times when I’ve seen insurers treat it more as a mental health condition, rather than as a neurodiverse. condition.

So so it’s just again, just being a bit mindful of that it can be on the ADHD side of things, it can actually be quite upsetting for people, if they’re, if it’s been indicated to them that it’s a mental health condition. So again, just go back to the, it’s because you’ve seen a psychiatrist, and it’s just sitting within that set, we don’t need to be going into the whole, you know, there’s this, you know, they’re going to be potentially considering this as mental health. But what we might need to do is, again, just prepare them in terms of the exclusions, because with the ADHD, we can, at times find that there’ll be mental health exclusions on an income protection policy, which again, can be quite upsetting for people, it’s it’s never pleasant, having any kind of exclusion on there. For people who have mental health and you know, definitely a condition as mental health, they will often understand that there’s going to be a mental health exclusion, and they will appreciate and said, Absolutely, I have this condition already, I appreciate that, you will get some people who don’t want to have that exclusion on them, naturally, nobody wants to have it on there. But you will sometimes get people who really, really don’t want to have it on there. And at times, you know, it can actually be quite an early conversation with your clients. You know, I was helping somebody a couple of months ago, they came to me initial conversation, actively has them depression. It is managed with medication, but it’s something that’s been there for quite a long time. And it was that conversation of saying, well, there is going to be a mental health exclusion on the policy from the start, I was able to say that knowing very early on that that’ll be a case before I’ve even done my research. And, and they said, but I don’t want that. And you obviously have a really, you have a really empathetic situation or conversation with them. And just say that I’m fortunate, I do appreciate that. But there’s still many, many things that you can claim on.

And it’s been a significant amount of things that you could potentially claim on. But unfortunately, right at this moment, and the types of policies that we can access in on the personal income protection market would be having an exclusion there. And they just simply do not want that. And it’s one of those things. And I’m sure, Lee, you’ll agree with me and I did this in a talk recently, you know, we’re not going to be able to insure everybody exactly how they want to be insured. There’s going to be people who do not want what’s available based upon either the limitations of the products that there are of their situation, it might be health, it might be residency, it might be to do with, you know, income levels, you know, it’s really important in terms of income protection, there’s been times that I’ve had people come to me wanting me to do income protection to protect state benefits. And that’s not what income protection is for. So there are gonna be times where ourselves the clients has to step away because it’s just not going to work. And if you are in a situation where you know there is going to be a mental health exclusion, if you know from the very start that person is going to not want that. Then it might be a conversation of maybe doing a little bit of research depending upon the situation because there are some times that we can get it without the exclusion I will go through that. But it might be that it’s in some ways, quite a quick conversation. So unfortunately, there’s just that isn’t what is available in the market right now.

And the Association of British Insurers the ABI did do some mental health training. And a little while ago, I forgotten the exact name of it. And it was all to do with improving the standards in our industry in terms of the languages, in terms of how we approach with clients being able to understand more in terms of the mental health side of things, I would suggest I’m actually trained as a Mental Health First Aider, it is something that if you’re going to do it, there are lots of organizations that say they do Mental Health First Aid training. But what you want to do if you if you do want to have a look at that is to find out and make sure that you choose somewhere that is approved by what’s known as MHFA, the Mental Health Foundation association in the UK, in England, because they are the ones that approved the official ones that do that there are times that you could potentially get training, and it’s not officially recognized. And that gives you a really good idea as to it has more to do with like high risk situations with people but it does give you understanding of some mental health conditions, make your site have a better understanding of them in a sense, knowing what to do, which can help as well in terms of conversations Touchwood, very much touching word. I am obviously known as helping people very much in more like the health condition space. And I am very much known as the advisor who helps with mental health conditions. And Touchwood. I’ve not had situations where I’ve, I’ve needed to go into the Mental Health First Aider mindset, and an approach.

So it is something that is it would be on, I think be unusual for you to come across it. But it is important to be very aware that these things can happen. And it’s important to know how to handle that for the client, but also for yourself. Because I always say this, there was so much focus on client from ability, which is absolutely brilliant. And he’s really, really just need to be there. But an advisor vulnerability is often ignored is incredibly important that you know how to look after yourself, look after your team, if they come across any situation. And that can be a mental health vulnerability. It might actually be that your advisor or yourself is speaking to somebody who’s been diagnosed with cancer. And actually, you’ve had cancer in the past, and they’re talking about their treatments. And you know what, maybe you’ve been absolutely fine for 15 years, it was a good while ago, your plastic, but actually, whatever reason, this conversations too much. And you know, you need to have some kind of support system in place to help you to just know how to process what you’re hearing. So we’re really, really conscious of that. We also want to be conscious of insurers questions.

So I a few years ago did inform an insurer that I wasn’t best pleased with their their choice of wording on their application, I checked it three weeks ago, it’s still there, maybe if the show or watches this, they’ll, they’ll know that I’m still referring to it. But as an example, sometimes you’ll put in a mental health condition in insurance systems, and it doesn’t show up and you get a scroll down list, you probably don’t want to read that scroll down list out fully, I’ll be very careful and mindful of what you’re reading out, because there is one insurer that has mental retardation still on their list, which is not appropriate, and really does need a removing if you are if you are watching this insurer, and you will know who you are, because I’ve raised it previously. And we might have time limits as well on the questions. So you know, suicide attempts, self harm thoughts, they might if they’re not in the last five or 10 years, some insurers won’t be asking some well, and so you know, it’s that thing of making sure that you know, the clients information. So when did this happen? And then have a look around seeing what the shows questions sets are the mental health questions are usually quite early on. So you don’t necessarily need to go all the way through an application. But you can start to sort of like maybe go in and go right, okay. Yes, there is a mental health condition there was this and see what that timing is that they’re wanting to know, which is quite useful. And you can also as well as they, some of them are timeframes.

Some of them, don’t ask about thoughts, some of them, don’t necessarily ask about attempts, they will maybe say, Have you planned and sort of like harming yourself, which is quite different to an attempt. And then you’ll have some that are saying, Have you planned this to the point that you need the support from a medical professional, which again, is very, very different in terms of in terms of what a person’s situation is? Now what I would say and it’s it’s not advised to ask somebody about their how their manner of attempt or harm was. Some people will just tell you and they will tell you anything and everything other people be quite guarded And one thing to know and I appreciate I’m sorry for the bluntness of this and expressing it. But there are in terms of attempts, there are different assessments when it comes to attempts. So there are assessments for nonviolent attempts, which would be somebody taking tablets to overdose. And then there’s violent attempts, which would be other manners, which I’m sure we can all guess what they would be. The violence attempts across all the products of protection products are considered to be higher risk.

So these shows do assess them differently. So you might do your research. And they might say, well, actually, based on this situation, so we’ll assume often assume non violent attempts, so they would maybe say we expect it to be I don’t know, let’s say plus 100, on the premium. And if it ends up that it was a violent attempt, it can be that if that that does change, so it’s always a good idea to give your client a bit of a leeway with the premium, just in case that is different. And again, be mindful that some people say won’t want to tell you much. Other people might tell you quite significant details about what’s happened in their past. And, and it’s just important to be aware of that, if it is going to go for GP report, the insurer is going to find out as to probably the detail, and so it’s it is going to be discussed at some point very likely in with the underwriters. And but we wouldn’t be saying to somebody, can I just check you’ve had a suicide attempt? Well, how did you do that? You know, that that wouldn’t be a conversation that comes up at all. It’s too personal to private. And we whilst we need to ask these questions, we need to make sure that we’re not doing anything that could be significantly triggering for this person. I always like to do it as well, where I say I’m going to prepare for the next stage. So I’m going to ask, you know, what is it? When was it diagnosed? Ability to work medications? And then I’ll say why I’m going to need to ask you now, the more in depth mental health questions, is that, okay? And I always say we can stop at any points, you know, if it’s not comfy talking about this, also give them the option to potentially do it through password protected documents, because sometimes people are better doing it written down rather than over the phone, it maybe feels, they can sometimes worry about being judged if it’s based on face to face or over the phone.

So the next set of questions will be psychiatrist inpatient treatments as well, being under the care of a community mental health team, the community mental health team can be quite tricky. And because some people will maybe see a counselor or psychologist at hospital, that’s not it’s not necessarily community mental health team, but it also can be. But the community mental health team is usually where there’s quite a bit of engagement, the seeing them, it’s very much at the start quite regularly, they are there because they are just monitoring to see if this person does actually need to maybe go and stay in hospital for a bit. And then after that, I’ll say and now these are the most in depth ones, and I’m sorry that I need to be asking them and that’s when you’d be asking about the thoughts of self harm. And the attempts, we will need to know how many of each of those things has happened and when they’ve happened as well. So in terms of outcomes, okay, mental health exclusions and income protection. And you’ll find these as very similar. If you try the waiver of premium on life and kick as well, there is going to be saying things like we will not pay out for anxiety, depression, it usually includes chronic fatigue syndrome, fibromyalgia, functional neurological disorders as well. And more it’s a paragraph it’s chunk. So it isn’t just you look at anything, this doesn’t feel just like mental health, it feels like quite an extra set of things.

Unfortunately, that is what we’re going to get. So it is important to say to the client early on, it is going to say mental health, but they do kind of add in a few extra things as well. But let’s just have a look, see what happens. And then when the exclusions are in, we can then decide as to what feels right. And go forward from there. We might have if there’s an exclusion, not all insurers, but some insurers will actually reduce the premium by about five to 10%. And the reason being is that the biggest claim to income protection and mental health and back. So they know that when they are putting an exclusion on for mental health, that actually one of the biggest reasons that this person is likely to claim on whether or not they have a mental health history or not, is being removed from the policy sets. So some of them will reduce the premiums not all of them. Were we’re going to potentially automatic declines across full income protection. So that can be options, but in your mainstream falling protect income protection, we are going to find things like schizophrenia, recent self harm or attempts are going to be something that are going to be covered. Also things like outstanding referrals for ADHD. And the reason being and this isn’t necessarily something to, to say to somebody who has an art Standing file for ADHD, but just to give you that insight is that in terms of the behavioral aspects that can come with ADHD, it can also be potentially if there’s tumors in the brain can be affecting the way that someone’s behavior is. So what they are wanting to do is the insurer wants to make sure is this ADHD, or is something else going on, we want to make sure and not just necessarily choose that can be a whole multitude of things, it’s just that that’s probably one of the easiest ones to ship show us like as an example. And so they just want to make sure actually, so what is going on, because obviously, options are very different between whether or not there’s ADHD, if there’s a tumor, if there’s a different type of mental health condition there, and that that they want to know about and being able to really understand the risk that the insurer is taking on. And as well in terms of medication that lithium. So this is the one that really stands out, genuinely with mental health, if somebody has anxiety, depression, they’re saying, so they have barely any symptoms, they don’t really need to have follow up. So you know, everything is fine, they’re working completely. And then when you check the medications, they’re actually on lithium.

Lithium is not a go to medication for mental health. It is something that is used for mental health, and it is incredibly beneficial for some mental health conditions. And you know, really, really useful, but we wouldn’t expect it for anxiety and depression. And it needs a psychiatrist to be able to diagnose it. So if somebody’s saying I’ve not seen a psychiatrist, I’ve not seen that, then something isn’t matching up in terms of the information. And what you can just say is like, well, I just need to clarify. So the underwriters, in terms of lithium, they would usually expect that to be to be conditions that aren’t, you know, anxiety, depression. I just double check, you know, when have you seen a psychiatrist, and if they’re still saying there’s not a psychiatrist there, then then what we’re going to just, you know, I would say at that point, just take all the information away, do speak with an underwriter to get some clarification. But you know, we’re probably going to need to go back to the client and say, Look, unfortunately, at the moment, I can’t get an accurate indication because of the fact that the underwriters are saying that they’re not sure why you’re why Lithium has been, you know, prescribed when there’s not been a psychiatrist involved. It could be that this person is quite confused in terms of what their diagnosis is. But lithium is definitely a medication that would stand out. Some of the conditions I’m going to be discussing where we can potentially look at options, it might be that lithium is there. But you know, your stress, you bereavement, anxiety, depression, we’re more going to be thinking things like fluoxetine, citalopram, and things that are known as SSRIs. And if need be, if you do for clients saying a name to and you’re not sure what it is do a quick Google Book like mental health and type out what you think they’re saying. And you’ll usually get the medication pop up.

So it’s easy for you to see as to what they’re referring to. Another thing as well to be very mindful of is the mixture with alcohol and drugs. So I always double check. Because when I say always double check these things, it’s because I’ve had this situation where I’ve done the research. So I’ve then gone to app and some things popped up this and massively changed something. So alcohol and drugs, when I’m doing my research, pre sales research with somebody and I’m getting that information before I’m doing the application. How much alcohol do you drink in any given week on average? And I always say, Have you ever been advised to reduce? It’s really, really important, you know? And have you ever taken recreational drugs? And I did have something not long ago, and some says, Well, what do you do? If you think that someone has taken recreational drugs? It does a bit of a tricky one. But sometimes we do need to just ask back. So I do a lot of my research chats with clients on the phone. And there has been times I’ve said, Have you ever taken recreational drugs? And there’s a pause, and it’s a pause, it’s a bit longer than you’d expect for someone to just answer. No, or yes, it’s maybe two seconds, three seconds, and they’ll come back and go, No, and I’ll go and you just say like, I’m sorry, I hope it’s okay. But there was a bit of a pause there kind of just double check is, is this a no? And then you’ll either get you’ve got notice or no? And then you kind of think I wonder if it isn’t now or you’ll get people go? Well, you know what, I did do a bit of cannabis at uni and you’re like, Okay, that’s fine. I just needed to know because then it just helps, you know, in terms of what I’m looking at when picking the right insurer, which is really, really important.

So do double check that insurers aren’t particularly keen if there has been a lot of alcohol use in the past or any kind of advice, especially if the person is still drinking soy sauce has been advised to reduce alcohol consumption is still drinking now. Even if it’s not much it does sometimes potentially present an issue and just be mindful as well. But insurers people often don’t really As just how much they’re drinking as well. So when you’re finding out from that, they might tell you the units. But if you’re getting told in terms of this many glasses of wine, there’s many beers, just calculate the units that you’re seeing there. Because you know, when we’re starting to get towards mid to high 20s, that is when again, it can start to be something that is a consideration, especially if there isn’t mental health that we are often going to get automatic declines if there’s a mental health condition and a back condition as well. Like I said, there are two main claim areas, if you have both of them, the insurer is going to say, well, we’re taking out pretty much the main things that people are gonna be claiming on. So we don’t think it’s worthwhile for the clients have this, there was a big debate about that. And I am working in the background about that with people about you know, well, you know, maybe people do want to have it, even if it is taking up those things, there’s many, many situations still where they might need to claim it as insurances.

So there is some debate, and there is potentially some movement in that at some point, isn’t very common to get through on the application stress, anxiety, depression, most of the time that will just be done and dusted straight to you online applications. And it can be depending on the timeframes, it can be anywhere from standard without an exclusion, it could be that there’s a premium increase, it could be that there’s an exclusion, it could be a mix of premium increase and exclusion, you can find that isolated, stress and bereavements won’t lead to an exclusion. Even if it is Sonic a bit closer than timewise than other things as well. We do now have in the last couple of years potential for insurance for people with bipolar disorder, and borderline personality disorder. Now, again, it would be, you know, possibly an exclusion, possible loading depending upon the situation. And that is, this is where we might be seeing that lithium, but again, it’s you know, it’s not to say that it rules it out, because that is seen as a recognized treatments for for conditions that do, you know, genuinely need, you know, need to have medication to really help the person. And just be mindful as well. If you are coming across bipolar or borderline personality disorder, you can often find that self harm and attempts have happened in the teenage years, because it’s those things that have happened and often quite a few and quick succession that has actually ended up leading to the diagnosis. And and unfortunately, it does often, it’s usually that set of offense, that would be the time that the person is really listened to. And those things are taken into into account. When you are given an exclusion on these things, and this, again, applies for anything, I would say any kind of risk, especially on the health side is right.

Okay, so we have an exclusion for mental health. It’s an example, When will this end? So we say to the underwriters, when will this not be an exclusion? So, you know, somebody’s had bereavement, let’s say, but let’s say it lasted quite a bit, as an example, and insurers are going to you know, what we actually just because it was so recent, it’s lasted quite a while they’ve had to have time off work a bit longer than you know, then then we would usually see, we do feel that we need to put a mental health exclusion on and just go okay, so how long for you know, is this if you if we apply again, in a year’s time or two years time, could this potentially not be an exclusion? And they might say that, they’ll genuinely say, maybe, but as long as you know, the symptoms haven’t gotten worse, and that they’re doing okay, that they’re still being able to stay in work, things like that. And so you might be able to go right okay, to the client, right at the moment is the exclusion bullets for chat again, in a year’s time, we might be able to do this out an exclusion. So I think it’s worth doing that let’s put this in this now is kind of thinking of it as a bit of a temporary solution, but at least we’re getting it now we’re locking premiums in place. You’re getting color for for the majority of things, you know, but let’s have a chat again, in a year’s time. I’ve heard that was somebody who’d had significant stress, unbelievable stress during the doctor, and it was during lockdown. And they were the just just outside of their training just to prove to be a doctor COVID happened lockdown happens and they were responsible for three wards of patients. And obviously, people were dying. And they were the only person only doctors on that Ward significantly intense stress and the argumentation was was surely anyone in that situation would have experienced stress regardless of just being a brand new doc.

So anything like that, you know, all health professionals during that time, it must have been horrific for them. And the insurance like we agree at this point at this moment. And we could just because of the timeframes and our rules, we need to put an exclusion on there. If you chat to us in four months time we’ll be able to take the exclusion of which is what we approached and did and also as well always check out your simplified routes. So we do have in the friendlies simplified routes where they can Be more have options at times, it does come down to the type of diagnosis, the treatments, things like that. But it might be that you’re thinking, actually, we can’t do this mainstream, we can’t get full income protection. So why don’t we try some of the other options, which can be useful. Again, they would have the exclusions for pre existing conditions, until certain timeframes have passed. But it’s worthwhile taking a look. So on the last thing here, looking at the claims, okay, so as somebody’s come to you, so let’s not assume that at the moment that they have mental health already, but they’ve come to you because they have income protection, and they’ve now developed a mental health condition, and we’re going to be helping them so do remind them of the value added benefits, you know, we could have access to mental health support, mental health support for value added benefits, I’ve been very vocal about this are quite limited. And if there’s certain levels of mental health in terms of if they have developed mental health condition, they have potentially had thoughts, they may be harmed, or attempted to die, then a lot of the mental health support services that I’m familiar with, in terms of the value added benefits would not offer support to that person, they would say it was too, too intense for their team to be able to look after, which is again, something that I’m working on in terms of clarity for people as to what these value ads do and don’t offer.

But we’re going to offer them things like that we do have things like, you know, we have best doctors, we have red X nurses, we have square health, lots and lots of different ones that can step in and provide the support that we’re wanting to do. If you’re able to resource wise off to support them through that claim, help them with the claim forms, be the person that is going to be the middle person between them and the claims people so that you can keep going back to the show, Mike, when is this getting sorted? What are the timeframes? And also ask them what they feel they need? Do they? Do they want you to contact them once a week or right at this moment? Do they need it every couple of days just know what’s happening in terms of the insurance process, do they want to not have contacts Is it too much, and they just want you to have the claim forms and contact them when it’s in a sense, it’s done and dusted, we wouldn’t just say that, you know, we would say to them, or you don’t need to contact too often, okay, but you would still contact you know, quite regularly in many ways just to make sure that they know what’s happening. And it’s quite likely as with most claims that you would need to consider this client to be vulnerable, at least at the initial stage. It is a very sensitive topic, when we’re talking about mental health, somebody might tell you lots, they might not tell you anything, they might want to talk to you by email, they might want to talk to you on the phone. And really important as well to make sure that whoever’s doing that doesn’t kind of go into almost a bit of like independence to this person, or even like a bit of a counselor role, which can potentially happen.

And you do need to have some support structures in place to just know that there is that line where we can offer support, but then you know, we can’t stay on the phone for three hours at a time or something we need to be able to, to be able to say, right, you know, this needs to leave it with me now I’ll be able to solve this and be very, very reactive to their needs. And obviously make sure whoever’s helping them feel that claim process does have support either internally or externally to again, process whatever is being discussed with them. Mental health can happen for many different reasons, it might be a reason that is, you know, it could be a boss that’s just not being pleasant. It could be a colleague, that’s not being pleasant. Or it might be that this person has experienced a significantly horrible life events, and you know that they need a lot more support. So we’ll just see how we go. Just to sort of like finish off with some last bits. And stress is a big topic when it comes to income protection. And it’s been a lot of debates. And I’ve been chatting to lots of insurers and reinsurers about this stress in itself is considered to be a symptom and not a mental health condition. So being signed off work with stress does not automatically mean that you are going to get a claim on income protection. It’s the insurer is going to be looking at it on a case by case basis. And my argument about this is sort of like saying, Well if it’s a symptom then why is it listed on the question set of Have you ever experienced stress, anxiety, depression, because anxiety and depression are mental health conditions. Stress is a symptom so why are we why are we doing exactly is about panic attacks and things like that. I don’t think I’m necessarily popular at times when I’m challenging these things with insurers and underwriters.

However, there has been a very significant set of discussions in the cycle the background in the industry for about the last year or so. And what we do have is the protection distributors group are going to be putting out some guidance for advisors on what to do about things like stress, but it is quite important if you’re doing income protection, is to just be mindful to say you know, obviously things like you know, things like mental health are covered if this person doesn’t already have it, but just subject but things like stress can be, you know, it depends upon the situation. And so some insurers will not pay out for stress, some will do it on a case by case. And unfortunately, it’s not particularly easy to know which insurers are doing which when it comes to that. So it is important to maybe start and see your to do your research as to sort of like which insurers approaches take what because that might lead you to then decide, well, actually, for my clients, this one over here is the cheapest. However, I know that stress might not be covered.

So I’m gonna suggest we go for this one, because I know that they say that stress is a is a covered condition, you know, we deal with class, it is a condition and payouts. And also as well, just another another one is having a sick note again, doesn’t automatically mean that somebody is going to get an IP claim, it does depend upon the situation. There’s quite a lot of discussions about at the moment, because it has been that thing of like moving sick notes potentially away from GPS to occupational therapist or physical physiotherapist, people like that. And that is going to bring a whole new dynamic as to how IP claims are being assessed. That’s me sort of like saying everything that I need to say, I hope it’s been helpful. If you have any questions, please feel free to just mention them. Or Lee, I know you usually have a question for me after my, after my rambling, you’re just spotted something that you’d like to ask on. So, so far away, yet? Sure.

Lee Robertson  46:32

I wanted to pick up on. I mean, this is such a big subject. And it’s probably one of the most sensitive subjects that any advisor be the protection or wealth advisor, who does protection would ever get involved in do you do you? As part of what you do with your experience? Do you express how important it is to do full disclosure? You know, we touched on drugs, we touch on potentially self harm, we touch on potentially suicide, there’s so many really sensitive subjects there, that many people will be uncomfortable about relating even many years down the line, I just wondered just just how you might approach that.

Kathryn Knowles  47:17

Absolutely. So I think a lot of people, but for a lot of people, when they come to me, they’ve often already tried somewhere else, or have not had the outcome that they wanted, or they’ve come from a charity, you know, potentially mental health charity. So I know that there’s, there’s going to be something there. When you do a protection insurance application. At the start there is kind of like a standard disclaimer that you need to say, as an advisor saying you must be truthful and honest. I’m also playing might not go ahead. I tend to say to people from the start, you know, I when I do my initial chat with somebody, I’m not going through an insurance application set because there’s too many questions and it’s it could waste everybody’s time. And I’ll just say to them, like, Do you have any medical conditions? And I always say, I’ll say, and, and please just tell me anything and everything, because then I know what the insurer needs to know, and what they don’t need to know. Because there’s things that people have that don’t need to come in the application, you know, again due to timeframes, or it might just not even come up in the question set. And, and so I do do that. And you know, we are saying obviously, again, just be as true for the best of your knowledge.

The difficulty you can really have is, it is really hard is that to the best of your knowledge. Because you know, when the insurance and have you seen a doctor in this many years, a lot of people I haven’t got a clue. You know, some people like Well, I haven’t seen a doctor in 10 years, and you’re like, Well, fair enough. But a lot of us will speak to a doctor about different things at different times. And you know, it could be something so simple, as you know, either twinge in my back. And so I said to the GP, I’ve had a twinge in my back for a week, what should I do, oh, they just want you to have a bit of physio session. Wonderful. And you might not know where that timeframe is so so we just have to do as I say that best of our knowledge. It is. It is tricky, though, you know, most people will share but depending upon how much they want to share is quite different. And as I say sometimes you just get you get very shut down one word answers. And you do need a special mental health offer all those different options, do they want a video call, they might want to see you and just know who to speak to know that it’s a real person. They might want telephone because they say they might think it’s less judgmental. They might want to all buy electronic documents. Again, it’s just making sure that you respond to that. And people do that in different ways. And one of the things that I’ve said as well is styled and introduced speak to me recently and there was chatting about, oh, well, there’s this in the history and that’s, you know, how would you want to do it? Would you?

Do you want to know stuff like do you want to send the questions by the introducer so they can get all the information first I’ll do I want to go straight to the client. And usually I do say a lot of the time look can that can I send over the questions so you can get the information so I can before you introduce Since me, I can say, Yes, I cannot not do some things. Again, I don’t want to waste anyone’s time, but especially from some mental health, as some of the lifestyle factors that we that I mentioned as well, it can sometimes be that they want to come directly to somebody like me who they know, as a specialist, specifically in this area. Because you can find that with people. It’s a case of, you know, the kind of like, well, look, you’re my financial advisor, and we’re speaking about my pensions and investments. I don’t want you to know about my mental health, I don’t want you to know all these things I’ve experienced, I want it to be somebody that I can pretend it’s over there that I don’t know that I’m not going to say now, every time I have a meeting, I’m going to know that you know, my deepest secrets. So it’s it’s just constantly being reactive to what that client needs. But the majority of mental health people are going to come across anxiety, stress, depression, and bereavements.

The stronger mental health conditions, actually, we don’t tend to come across as much because there is an obviously I work quite a bit with mental health charities as well, there is an automatic assumption that they’re not going to be treated fairly, and that and so they just, it’s really sad because they just, they just don’t even start the process. So it’s just important, again, as advisors that we’re giving people that option. And let’s say we’re doing something with them, like a mortgage. And obviously, ultimately, in our industry, a mortgage partner children, we’re gonna go live. And we might be thinking life and kick down, ultimately automatically ignore income protection, because there’s a mental health condition there. And just as a bit of an aside, going into the kick side of things, just be mindful that if you go for say, like enhanced critical illness options, we can find that enhance crystals contracts, you can include things like psychosis is a claimable condition. And what you can find is that that can lead to there being an exclusion, because it’d be in a psychosis exclusion. Whereas if you come for the car cover, there wouldn’t be an exclusion because psychosis just isn’t even covered on the car side. So probably gauge it, find out what your client feels, give them the options, explain the option to them, and go forward from there.

Lee Robertson  52:13

That’s really useful. And actually, that’s that’s quite an interesting point. It’s somebody that comes from the wealth advice end. That’s that’s despite my kind of leaning into protection so hard that that’s a really important point, because some clients may just want to separate it out a bit. So that’s, that’s quite important. So I think we pretty much at time, yeah. So unless Gregory has any final comments or questions?

Kathryn Knowles  52:41

I’ll be there. Obviously, thank you for for attending. And we’ll do the obviously I’ll do the CTB CPE, the CPT certificate, and that will be available on the website shortly on fortune as I mentioned at the beginning, I am having some time pulling me away from work at the moment. I will it will be on there as your please do feel free to get that watch the other episodes and get your CPD that way too. Okay,

Lee Robertson  53:09

Brent, well, listen again, Catherine. Thank you another really cracking session. So thanks, Greg, and for turning up. Thanks for everyone in advance who will watch this on demand. We’ll hope to see you there for the next session.

Kathryn Knowles  53:19

As I say thank you very much, everybody and have a lovely summer. We’ll be back again after the summer.